我对那种涉及一种情绪、一种感觉 I never was interested in dancing that referred
或者传达某种意义上的音乐 fo a mood, or a feeling, or in a sense,
从来提不起跳舞的兴趣 expressed the music.
舞蹈不应该参考外界的事物 So that the dancing does not refer.
跳舞就是跳舞 It is what it is.
就是舞蹈时带来的整个视觉体验。 It's that whole visual experience.
再现康宁汉 字幕@暗杀十三招
向外， 拉伸 Out. Stretch.
二、下、下 Two, down and down.
向上，对，一步。 Up. Yeah. Step.
坚持，坚持，坚持 Hold. Hold. Hold.
今晚，“舞蹈世界”有请到了 默斯·康宁汉 Tonight, the world of dance welcomes Merce Cunningham.
他要求我们不要称他为前卫编舞家， He has asked us not to call him an avant-garde choreographer,
或现代舞编导 or a modern dance choreographer.
所以我问他，我们应该怎么称呼他。 So I'm going to ask him what we may call him.
好吧，我是一名舞者。 Well, I'm a dancer.
这样就可以了？ That says everything?
嗯，这对我来说已经足够了。 Well, that's sufficient for me.
因为我和我的舞者是一样的， Since my dancers and I are a group of human beings,
我们在舞台上， we are that on the stage,
正如在现实生活中一样， as we are in real life,
用各种方式展开运动 people moving around in various ways.
我们不去解释。 But we don't interpret something.
我们呈现一些东西，我们做一些事情， We present something, we do something,
然后任何在观众席中欣赏它的人 and then any kind of interpretation is left
自然会有自己的解释 up to anybody looking at it in the audience.
我对运动的想法是 My idea about movement is that any movement
任何运动都能用于舞蹈之中。 is possible for dancing.
当然，我所说的是广义上的运动，从彻底的静止 That ranges all the way from nothing, of course,
到那些人们能够想到的 up to the most extended kind of movement
极限性的动作 that one might think up.
你是学现代舞出身的， Your background is in modern dance,
对吗，康宁汉？ is it, Merce Cunningham?
是的 Yes.
现在，你有没有发展出一种自己独特的技巧？ Now, did you evolve a technique of your own?
嗯，无论是身体上还是技术上， Well, physically or technically,
我每次看到伸展运动时 I was interested in extending
都对这一运动的可能性很感兴趣。 movement possibilities as I saw them.
我认为芭蕾的腿部技巧令人惊讶， I thought that a ballet technique for the legs
我也思考了很多现代舞当中的元素 was astonishing, and I thought many things in the modern dance
这些元素在呈现躯体时非常出色。 were remarkable for the torso.
所以我试着想办法把它们结合起来， And so I tried to find ways to combine those
让身体变得灵活而柔顺 to make a body which was flexible and pliant
并允许尽可能多的运动的可能性。 and allowed for as many movement possibilities as I could see.
练习对于舞者来说有一种危险的吸引力， Dance exercises over dancers an insidious attraction
他们每天要工作几个小时 that makes them work hours daily
只是为了完善一个 at perfecting an instrument
从出生就开始恶化的乐器。 which is really deteriorating from birth.
为什么要进行这种永恒的日常斗争？ To what end this eternal daily struggle?
因为这一切之中有一种狂喜。 Because inside of all that is an ecstasy.
简而言之，舞者并不能每一次都感受到释放， Brief perhaps, not always released,
但当这一刻来临的时候，就像达到了某种平衡 but when it is, like a moment in balance
伟大与渺小会在这一刻互相重合 when all things great and small coincide.
而这一刻可能在任何时候发生 This can happen at any moment,
对一个舞者来说，当这一刻真正来临时， and when it does for a dancer,
他会发出不自觉的微笑。 he can smile without knowing it.
我不能保证这一点，但它确实存在 There is no guarantee of this, but it does exist.
我们见过它，我们知道它。 We see it, and we know it.
就我自己而言，我不认为纪律是一种规则 Myself, I don't think of discipline as, like, rules.
我认为纪律是一种私人的东西， I think of discipline as being something private,
比如，对于舞者来说， which, in the case of a dancer,
他会意识到纪律， he realizes that the discipline,
举个例子说，练习作为纪律其实是他生活的一部分。 say, of going to class, is part of his life.
他通过自主达到了自律。 He arrives at this point within himself.
我认为，纪律更像是一种冥想或者虔敬， It's more like meditation, devotion, I think,
而不是其他别的东西 than anything else.
我去华盛顿西雅图的学校的时候， I went to school in Seattle, Washington,
约翰·凯奇正好在那儿， and Mr. Cage was there,
他给我们上了一堂作曲课。 and he taught us a composition class.
那堂课太棒了，我永远不会忘记。 And it was so remarkable, I never forgot this.
第二年，我去了纽约， The next year, I went to New York,
凯奇先生最终加入了我们。 and Mr. Cage joined eventually.
所以从那以后他就一直在为我写音乐。 So he's been writing music for me ever since.
人们经常认为 People have, um, often defended art
艺术的存在是因为 on the grounds that life was a mess,
生活已经一团糟了 and that, therefore, we needed art
艺术能够帮助人们逃离生活 in order to escape from life.
但是我想要一种，呃，令人眼花缭乱的， I would like to have an art that was so, uh, bewildering,
复杂，而且，呃，不合逻辑的艺术， complex, and, uh, illogical that we would return
这种艺术让我们最终能够愉悦地回归到日常生活中， to everyday life with, uh, great pleasure.
没有沉默这回事。 There is no such thing as silence.
即使我无话可说时， I have nothing to say,
我也在言说。 and I am saying it.
这就是我需要的诗歌。 And that is poetry as I need it.
我第一次见到默斯·坎宁安时， First time I met Merce Cunningham,
他正和约翰·凯奇一起在美国巡回演出 he was touring the States with John Cage.
我从没见过这样的动作，从一个安静的中心开始， I'd never seen anyone move like that, from such a quiet center,
带着如此兽性的霸道和人类的热情。 with such animal authority and human passion.
洛特曼曾经是康宁汉的医生 Merce Cunningham's doctor used to be Dr. Lotman.
洛特曼给康宁汉开了 Dr. Lotman's the one who prescribed
维生素药丸和早餐粉。 Merce's vitamin pills and breakfast powders.
他告诉默斯能坐着就别站着， He told Merce to sit when he didn't have to stand,
能躺着就别坐着， to lie down when he didn't have to sit,
并且只要能睡觉就去睡觉。 and to sleep whenever he could sleep.
但是康宁汉有着积极主动的性格， Possessed of an active disposition,
即使他坐着的时候也在忙碌 Cunningham keeps busy even when he's sitting.
他用钢笔或铅笔制作计划表， With pen or pencil he makes calendars,
规划表演或其他预约的日程 circling the days involving performances
一直忙个不停 or other engagements.
一个计划表完成，他开始另一个。 One calendar finished, he starts another.
多年来，他都在早餐桌旁自学俄语。 For years, sitting at the breakfast table, he taught himself Russian.
这使他能够在莫斯科大剧院芭蕾舞团演出前 This enabled him to speak in their language to members
用俄语与当地的成员交流 of the Bolshoi Ballet before performing
让他的团队参与工作 with his company for them.
学会了编织后，他开始 Having learned to knit, he knitted
亲手制作他在“Lavish Escapade”中穿的彩色服装。 the many-colored costume he wears in "Lavish Escapade."
几年前，我决定要制作 I simply decided years ago that I would make
一支独立于音乐的舞蹈。 a dance free of the music.
我们会在最后把音乐和舞蹈放在一起。 And then we would put the sound and the dance together.
那么，实际上，你在此之前从未听过他的音乐， Then, actually, you have never heard his music,
他看过你的舞蹈吗？ - 不。 and has he seen your dance? - No.
直到在当晚的演出， And the night of the performance,
你才会把他的音乐和你的舞蹈结合起来？ you will combine the two?
如果我够好运的话，是的 With any luck.
那么，你收获的反应是怎么样的？ What, then, reactions have you had to that?
有的观众惊呆了，呃...... Well, all the way from absolute stupefaction
此外，还有另一些观众 on the part of an audience to, uh...
他们非常喜欢 to people liking it very much.
当我和用不其他方法进行训练的舞者合作时， When I began to work with dancers who were trained in other techniques,
我感到有些不适应 it didn't function for me.
所以我想如果我能自己教学... So I decided that maybe if I could teach...
在我上的第一堂课， I must say the first class I gave,
有一个人出现了， There was one person who showed up,
一个了不起的家伙，玛丽安·普雷格-西蒙， a wonderful Marianne Preger-Simon,
他说，“是你上课吗？” who said, "Well, will you give the class?"
我说是的，然后我开始了。 And I said yes. So I began.
我一直觉得，当我和他一起工作的时候， I've always felt, during the time when I worked with him,
尽管他会提供我们要做的所有动作， although he was giving out all of the activity that we did,
你依然有很大的空间可以自由发挥。 there was a great space for you to do it yourself.
我认为默斯对我们作为舞者所具有的缺陷很感兴趣。 I think that Merce was interested in what could be considered our flaws as dancers.
他对于要不要纠正我们常常会犹豫， And he hesitated to correct us
除非他真的被他看到的东西激怒了 unless he just got irritated by what he saw.
我认为他更像是一个艺术家 I think he was much more of an artist
而不是一个老师 rather than a teacher
他会试图要求我们达到那个完美的和理想的标准。 who was going to try to get us to do things up to some perfect and ideal standard.
- 他让我发现我在 - I found I was doing things
做一些我从未梦想过我能完成的事情 that I never dreamed were possible.
世界正在以一种我不理解的方式向我开放 And the world was opening up in a whole way that I hadn't understood.
与 康宁汉合作的难处在于 The thing that's so hard about working with Merce
他要求你首先得是你自己 is that he demands that you are first of all yourself
首先是一个人， as a human being,
然后，从那开始，变成一个舞者。 and from that, a dancer.
要继续吗？ And you move on it?
是的，再来一次，你自己决定 Yes. There again, you can walk up or not.
我自己从来不喜欢那种竞争性的东西， I myself never liked that competitive thing
但是许多舞蹈在我看来都是这样 that so much of dancing seemed to me to have,
所以我从来没有在我自己的舞蹈里尝试这种东西。 so I never tried to do that in my own situation.
我依然相信每个舞者都是具有某些独特能力的人。 I went on the assumption that each dancer was a person who had certain abilities.
我会尝试让每个舞者自己了解他自己究竟是如何跳舞的， I would attempt to let each of the dancers find out for himself how he danced,
以及在那种情况下，他是一个什么样的人。 what kind of a person he was in that situation.
这不是政治，而是跳舞，但和其他地方一样 It's not politics, it was dancing, but that's as reasonable a place to do that
这样做很合理 as any other situation.
一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八。 One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.
在 50 年代初， In the early '50s,
我的舞团，可以这么说，开张了。 that point that my company, So to speak, began.
我没有 考虑怎么去组织， 这个舞团才刚刚开始。 I didn't form it. It just began.
我们只是聚在一起并试图保持着这种状态 We just sort of got together and tried to keep together.
这就是这家舞团的全部。 That's all there is to it.
突然间，从三人、八人到六十人，我们的舞团就发展起来了， Suddenly, there's a company of three people, or eight people, or 60 people,
我认为人数并不重要，这只是个比例的问题。 I don't think it matters, it's only in proportion.
但是你必须考虑到所有这些人的方方面面 Then you have to consider all of those people
一个事实是他们是人， in all the ways. The fact that they are people,
他们得生活，你懂的， they must somehow get from day to day, you know,
就是要有地方睡觉，有东西吃，以及所有这些。 and have some place to sleep, something to eat, all of that.
这些都必须考虑在内， And all of that has to be taken into consideration,
还有你现在的实际情况也要考虑进去 as well as the fact that you are now
你现在不仅要为自己编舞， not only responsible for making a dance for yourself,
还需要对其他舞者负责。 but for these other dancers too.
这就意味着要考虑服装，嘿， And that implies something about clothing, heh,
我总得让他们穿点什么 covering them up some way,
还有一些关于音乐的东西，但是不管你怎么计划 something about music, however you think of that,
总会有更多计划之外的东西…… and all that gets more...
以因为各种原因而需要更多的资金 involves more funds, one way or another.
但你做到了，不是吗？ But you do it, don't you?
通过你的运作方法 The way you function?
是， 你要么找到一种运作方法，要么就别干了。 Yes. You find a way to function or you quit.
是的，当然。 Yes, of course.
你在排练的时候做什么？ What do you do during rehearsal?
- 这一切是怎么发生的？ - 我们开始排练的时候， - How does this all happen? - We rehearse,
我会用秒表对舞蹈的给定部分进行跟踪 and then I will keep track via stopwatch of a given section.
我们曾经做过的一首曲子是“五人组曲” One of the pieces that we used to do was "Suite for Five,"
我们可以几个月不排练那支舞， and we could go several months without rehearsing that dance,
然后一旦开始，我们就会彻底投入其中， and then do it and we would come out within,
哦，每次表演的误差最多10秒。 oh, at the most, 10 seconds difference.
默斯的秒表工作方式， Merce's way of working with a stopwatch,
震惊了现代舞界， which so shocked the modern dance world,
导致该舞团以冷酷、不人道、冷漠、 led to the company's reputation of being cold, inhuman,
毫无感情的机器人风格而闻名。 impassive, expressionless automatons.
在我看来，在我们的社会中， It seemed to me that, in the society around us,
出现了很多科学的可能性 there were so many scientific possibilities coming up
一个人不必按照 that one did not have to think
一件事接着另一件事的次序来思考， in terms of one thing following another,but, say, in a field.
我开始考虑运用可能性创作舞蹈。 And I began to make dances with those possibilities in mind.
可以说，作曲的方法就是 So to speak, compositional method
利用偶然的机会或随机方法。 was by using chance, or random means.
如果我不喜欢这个随机程序的结果， If I don't like what comes up with the chance procedures,
我接着就要放弃它吗？ do I then throw it away?
换句话说，我要不要让我的个人品味介入其中？ In other words, do I let my taste enter this thing?
呃，我不会。 And I, uh, don't.
我会继续尝试。 I try it out.
我们的观众是艺术家。 Our audiences were artists.
美国伟大的画家， The great American painters,
他们刚刚变得众所周知。 they were just becoming well-known.
他们仍然很穷。 They were still poor.
好吧，似乎真正接受我的作品的人是舞者和音乐家， Well, the people who really seemed to accept my work were dancers and musicians,
而我几乎被其他所有人视为小丑。 while I was considered a clown by nearly everyone else.
而且，呃，我发现，这些画家关于艺术是什么的想法 And, uh, I found a lot more rapport with, uh, their ideas
比我原先所想的更和谐 about what, uh, art was than I did with a lot of painters.
于是我们立刻成为了朋友。 We became friends immediately.
我们不用说话就能理解对方的感受。 We understood, without speaking, how the other one felt.
这几乎是一种认同感。 Almost a sense of identity.
鲍布·劳森伯格曾经说， Bob Rauschenberg described it once,
我和他只有两个共同点， he said we have only two things in common,
我们的想法和我们的贫穷， 哈哈哈。 our ideas and our poverty. Ha-ha-ha.
我认为这是一个了不起的描述。 I thought that was a marvelous description.
它让我们走到了一起。 And it brought us together.
默斯并不是那种容易合作的人。 Merce is not the easiest person to work with
首先，他讨厌布景。 in the first place. He hates sets.
他讨厌服装。 He hates costumes.
所以，你必须在他甚至没有注意到的情况下解决这些问题 So I mean, you really have to work around without his even noticing.
有一次我说：“鲍勃，在其中一个舞蹈中，我想背着一把椅子” I said, "Bob, I want to wear a chair on my back"
他看着我， in one of the dances. He looked at me,
几分钟后他说： and then a few minutes later he said:
“如果你有椅子的话，那可以给我来一扇门吗？” "If you have a chair, can I have a door?"
我说，“当然。为什么不呢？” And I said, "Certainly. Why not?"
我们合作中最棒的就是 One of the most amazing things about our collaboration
那种全权委托的信任， was sort of a carte-blanche trust,
那里没有人是真正负责的， where nobody is really responsible,
但作为一个团队，没有人感到自己是无关紧要的 but as a group of people, are not irresponsible.
我认为这创造了一种关于美好社会之可能性的感觉。 And I think that creates a kind of a wonderful feeling about the possibilities of society.
我不知道会发生什么，直到它第一次出现在表演中 I don't know what will happen until it's put, let's say, in the first performance.
我宁愿冒险，可以这么说， I prefer to risk, so to speak, to chance that,
去冒险，看看这种组合， that this combination of things,
能不能产生一些我不知道的东西。 some of which I don't know about, may produce something else.
我曾经非常嫉妒约翰， I used to be so jealous of John
因为约翰做任何事都不会出错， because John couldn't do anything wrong,
可是制作服装和布景不一样... but making costumes and sets...
因为我一直在和道具打交道， I was always in the furniture business,
你可能会被布景或服装绊倒。 and you can trip overeither the set or the costumes.
但你不会在一张纸条上绊倒。 But you can't trip on a note.
那么，在“夏日空间”中 Well, in "Summerspace,"
我想表达的是舞蹈没有任何中心。 all I said was that the dance didn't have any center.
- 我明白你的意思。 - I - knew what you meant.
在舞台侧方也会有同样多的舞蹈。 There was gonna be just as much dancing in the wings.
所以我设计了一种伪装。 So I planned a kind of a camouflage.
这样的话，如果有人犹豫， So if anybody hesitated,
他们就会迷失在背景之中。 they were lost in the background.
我们今天在“夏日空间”上工作。 We worked on "Summerspace" today.
对“夏日空间”来说， In Summerspace,
主要的动力是对于 the principal momentum was the concern
那些带领人们穿越空间的步伐的关注 for steps that carry one through space.
就像鸟儿在地上停留片刻，然后继续飞行， Like the passage of birds stopping for moments on the ground, and then going on,
或者像当汽车穿过公路时 or automobiles throbbing along turnpikes
路边的叶子上下跳动的感觉 and under and over clover leaves.
这出舞蹈有大量的旋转动作， The dance came out to have a great deal of turning in it,
这在一开始让舞者感到不安。 which was upsetting to the dancers.
“我不能转。” "I can't turn."
“你怎么转？” "How do you turn?"
唯一的办法就是去做。 The only way to do it is to do it.
每天教完课我就继续练舞， I continued to work out the dance every day after teaching,
随着时间的流逝，我们所有人都变得越来越疲倦。 with all of us growing wearier as the weeks went on.
我们在周日的日场上，穿着现场服装 And we presented it on a Sunday matinee, in the spot costumes
在罗伯特·劳森伯格的点画派背景下， and against the pointillist backdrop by Robert Rauschenberg,
伴着莫顿·费尔德曼的图表音乐表演了这出舞蹈。 and with the graph music by Morton Feldman.
观众对我们的表演感到迷惑 The audience was puzzled.
我们不想只是留在纽约表演 When we started, we didn't want to simply stay in New York
在一个小剧院里出一个节目， and give one program maybe in a small theater,
然后希望用今年剩下的时间付把戏演完之类的 and then hope for the rest of the year to pay it off, and so on.
于是我们开始驱车去其他地方演出 So we began to drive.
康宁汉舞团过去常常用一辆大众微型客车 The Cunningham Company used to make transcontinental tours
去完成洲际巡回演出 in a Volkswagen Microbus.
有一次，当我们开车到俄亥俄州的一个加油站时， Once, when we drove up to a gas station in Ohio,
舞者和往常一样涌下车 and the dancers, as usual, all piled out
去上厕所或者在水泵周围锻炼。 to go to the toilets and exercise around the pumps.
车站服务员问我 The station attendant asked me
我们是不是一群喜剧演员。 whether we were a group of comedians.
我说：“不，我们来自纽约。” I said, "No. We're from New York."
真正的合作 The real collaboration
都发生在这辆大众巴士里 was all getting into that Volkswagen bus.
当我们玩拼字游戏时，我不得不坐在司机旁边。 I had to sit next to the driver when we played Scrabble.
直到凯珞琳·布朗的丈夫说 Until Carolyn Brown's husband said that she would have
她必须得离开舞团，除非我们不再在找蘑菇的路上 to leave the company if we didn't stop playing Scrabble
玩拼字游戏的话， while we drove looking for mushrooms.
这也很有趣。 It was fun too.
但是也很吓人。 It was horrible too.
但这是我们能做的，所以我们就去做了 But that's what we could do, so we did it.
约翰... John...
它被动物吃掉了。 It's been eaten up by animals.
罗赖马州丝孢砖红韧黑伞，他们正还给它取名。 Hypholomaornaematoloma, and they are changing the name.
其中的九个人总是匆匆忙忙从一个地方 There are nine of you chugging along from one place
到另一个地方，呃，他们搞了个小部落。 to another, and, uh, they were very tribal.
约翰那时候一直非常慷慨。 And John was incredibly generous all the time.
他组织了这些可爱的野餐和... He organized these lovely picnics and...
那个时候，我们的食宿是免费的， In those days, we had our food and lodgings paid for
一场演出可以有25美元的收入，就是这样。 and got 25 dollars a performance, and that was it.
他们说音乐太糟糕了 On top of which they said the music was impossible.
还有一位女士写信说她 And there was a lady who wrote to say that she had come
从纽约大老远赶来，为了来这儿， to New York from a distance, and that in order to do that
她还不得不雇了一个保姆。 she had had to employ a babysitter.
他们把这个事情登了报。 And they printed this in the paper.
是一个评论家登的。 The critic printed it.
当她到的时候， And that when she got there,
她看到的和听到的东西 what she saw and what she heard
都太糟糕了，你看， was so bad, you see,
她，可以这么说， that she had, so to speak,
被骗了这么多钱…… been cheated out of all this money...
车票，火车票，还有请保姆的钱。 The ticket, the train ticket, and the babysitter.
然后评论家补充说， And then the critic added that we had no right
我们舞团没有权力以这种残酷的方式对待人们 to treat people in this cruel fashion.
早年你和凯奇第一次一起巡演的时候 When you and Cage were first touring together
你对你所做的事情是否有足够的信心 during those early years, did you have enough belief
让你可以不因为那些负面的反应而感到气馁？ in what you were doing to not be discouraged by the negative reactions?
我只在意一件事 The only thing for me is that
我真的非常喜欢跳舞。 I really am deeply fond of dancing.
所以无论多么绝望， So no matter how dire the situation was,
总有一天，我醒过来 how desperate, I would wake up one day
然后开始工作，然后在某个瞬间意识到 and start to work and suddenly realize
跳舞总是，和以前一样，一直那么有趣， that it was just as interesting as it always had been,
无论什么情况之下都是这样 regardless of the circumstances.
当我们巡演时，我们也， But we also, as we toured,
开始交朋友......尽管不多。 we began to have friends... Not many.
但是每个地方都会有一些人 But every place there would be a few people
对我们所做的事情非常感兴趣。 who would be very interested in what we had done.
真正让舞者感到满足的是表演， What's gratifying to a dancer, really,
这比其他任何事情都重要。 is performing, more than...More than anything else.
当然排练也会带来 Rehearsal has a certain class, has a certain kind
一定的满足感，但是 of gratification, but not, you know,
完全不如表演带来的满足感多，而且我们练的很少。 not as much as performing, and we do it so little.
然后当它结束时，你还剩下什么？ And then when it's over, what is there?
你懂的，你回到你的单人公寓， You know, you go back to your solitary flat,
回到你那糟糕的工作， and your horrible job,
你什么都没有。 and there's nothing.
我从没想过这就是它的意义所在。 I never thought that's what it's about.
我认为真正的事情是你继续， I think the real thing is the fact that you continue,
你继续做下去， that you keep on doing things,
因为这不是钱， because it isn't about the money,
或者没钱的问题，或者…… or not having money, or...
任何类似的东西，它是关于创造 anything like that, it's about making something.
你如何让一个动作充满活力，要不要在其中加入技术性？ How do you make a movement alive, technique or not?
你如何在经过长时间地学习、练习和重复后 How do you keep in the dancing, however long studied,
在舞蹈中保持一种 practiced, and repeated,that spontaneous act
就像猫的姿态那样的自发的动作？ the stance of a cat can give you?
对我来说，这是一个信仰 It is for me a question of faith
和一个持续信仰的问题 and a continuous belief
在惊喜的瞬间。 in the surprise of the instant.
忘却疲劳、疼痛、 Put aside fatigue, aches,
和对身体与心理的伤害。 injuries to the body and the psyche.
让单个或多个动作的姿态和时间来衡量这个动作。 Let the shape and the time of a single or multiple action take its weight and measure.
这将是富有表现力的。 It will be expressive.
我能回忆起的第一次“危机” My first recollection of "Crises"
是康宁汉为自己制作了 was Merce was making for himself
所有这些美妙的独奏 all these wonderful solos.
我的意思是，这些曲子很疯狂， I mean, they were mad
而且有很多戏剧性的东西， and lots of dramatic stuff in them,
而我们从来没有这样做过。 and we never got to do that.
维奥拉和我说，“在下一部作品中， And Viola and I said, “In the next piece
我们想成为女巫。”然后他就是这么做的！ we want to be witches." And that's what he made.
人们相信康宁汉的话。 People take Merce at his word.
他们相信康宁汉说的，他在台上编排的只是舞步， They absolutely believe him that it's only steps
但事实并非如此 that he's putting on the stage, but it isn't true.
这不是一出两个人的舞蹈。 It's not a dance of two people.
我的意思是，虽然女舞者也需要做些事情， I mean, the women do certain things,
但所有的，呃，真正的行动 but all of the, uh, real action
都是由康宁汉发起的 is initiated by him.
我被抱起来， I'm picked up and carried,
很少有面对面的动作。 and it's also very little face to face.
我认为，在几乎所有双人舞中， That's very much true, I think,
都是这样的 in almost all of the duet things.
如果我去找他，对他说 If I were to go to him and say, "Merce",
莫斯，这是什么？格斯和我做的这个奇怪的下落动作 what does this... This exotic fall that Gus and I do mean?
应该是什么意思？ "What's it supposed to mean?" You know?
他会哼一声，转过身去。 He'd snort and turn his back.
把它从动作中拿掉 He'd take it away from us.
他会说，不要这样做。 He'd say, don't do it.
你准备往哪一边？ Which side are you going to go to?
好吧，等等，坚持，坚持 All right, hold on,hold on. Hold on.
下来，就是这样， 就这样。 Just down,that's it. That's all.
可以吗？ Is that all right?
现在转身，格斯， 没错，就是这样， Now turn, Gus. That's right, so that way, Gus.
不错 That's fine.
现在，桑德拉，放手， 把你的手拿开。 Now, Sandra, let go. Take your arms away.
没错， 现在，等等... That's right. Now, excuse me...
现在弯下来。 Now curve your trunk.
把这条胳膊给我， 直接给我。 Give me this arm. Bring it right up.
这就对了 That's it.
不幸的是， Unfortunately, it doesn't come
从来没有任何清晰的理由 ever with anyclear understanding
为什么一个舞者会或者不会出现在舞蹈中…… as to why you are or are not being included, except that...
默斯就像一个画家， Merce is like a painter,
而我们就像不同的颜色。 and we're all like different colors.
有时候他想要某种颜色，而其他时候，他不想 And he wants some colors, and other times, he doesn't.
我认为舞团内部有一种强烈的爱， I think there's a great sense of love
一种人与人之间的爱，呃...... within the company, one for the other, and, uh...
但是康宁汉无法坦诚表达这种感觉……， Merce isn't able to express that... openly,
但过一会儿你就会感觉到他的爱 but after a while you sense it.
他从不直接表达吗？ He never expresses it openly?
几乎不会……不。 Not really... no.
旧金山 San Francisco.
从黄昏到黎明♪ From dusk till dawn ♪
♪ 我有另一个幻想的世界... T ♪ I've got another world Of delusion... T
“凛冬寒枝”的总体的思路是黑暗 In "Winterbranch," the general idea was darkness.
- 一切都是关于暴力。- 我很好奇 - It was all about violence. - I'm interested
你说这段舞蹈关于暴力的 to hear you say it was about violence
我以为，总的来说， because I think, on the whole,
你不喜欢解释你的舞蹈 you don't like these interpretations.
是这样的，这件作品由各种元素组合而成 You see, this piece by the combination of the elements
最终诞生了这场关于暴力的表演， produces this violent display,
但它所传达出的那种暴力的体验 but the kind of violence it produces
对每个观众来说都是特别的。 is special to each spectator.
有人看到了种族骚乱，有人看到了原子弹，有人看到了集中营， One was race riots, and one was atomic bomb, and one was concentration camps,
还有更多别的东西 and on and on.
我们在纽约收到的反应是最激烈的 The most violent reaction we received from it was New York.
那时候美国还没有发生大量暴力事件 It was before there was a great deal of violence in the United States.
如果今天我们再演这支舞， And now we do it and people no longer take it
人们不会觉得它很暴力，因为他们知道 as being violent because they know
当他们在离开剧院去到街上，甚至就在他们旁边的座位上， there might be violence when they go out in the street
都可能会出现更加暴力的行为。 or even in the seat next to them.
现在，谈谈你刚结束的世界巡回演出吧 Now, this world tour that you just came back from, tell us about it.
我们的演出从斯特拉斯堡开始，到东京结束。 Well, we started in Strasbourg and we ended in Tokyo.
中间经过了巴黎、威尼斯、维也纳和德国的一些城市， And in between was Paris and Venice and Vienna and cities in Germany,
我们还在伦敦和斯德哥尔摩呆了一个月。 and a month in London and Stockholm.
然后我们去了波兰，还有捷克斯洛伐克。 Then we went to Poland, and then we went to Czechoslovakia.
我们是第一批去那里的西方舞者。 We were the first Western dancers to come there.
我们在一个 3000 人的大厅里表演 And we played in a hall with 3000 people.
但是你的表演有着如此大的争议， But you arouse such controversy that all audiences
我想观众对你的反应大不相同，不是吗，莫斯？ don't greet you the same way, do they, Merce?
你怎么知道观众喜欢什么？ How do you say that what was the audience like?
观众中的每个人都是不同的。 Everybody in the audience is different.
他们可能都不喜欢它。 They may all dislike it.
但是其中的原因也是不同的 Dislike it for different reasons.
别放音乐了！ No more music!
把音乐停下！ Stop music!
我有一种对世界的看法， I've got in my mind a kind of point of view of the world,
我看到有一种箭在不断向前飞， and I see a kind of arrow advancing,
我看到伦勃朗在做一些事情， and I see Rembrandt's doing something,
米开朗基罗在做一些事情， Michelangelo's doing something,
然后约翰凯奇做了一些事情。 and then John Cage did something.
于是我当然想更进一步，这是很自然的 I want to go further, of course. It's natural.
这是一种文艺复兴的观点， This is Renaissance point of view,
一种欧洲人的观点 a European point of view,
认为一切都是线性的 that everything's going in a single line.
但是我们并不在一条线上 And we're not going in a single line.
- 我们在一个平面上。 - 是的... - We're in a field. - Yeah...
您也可以进入这个平面。 And you can also enter into the field.
我们在伦敦加场演出 We were held over in London.
- 对 - 不知怎么的， - Yes. - Somehow,
默斯搞砸了，于是英国人很喜欢我们。 Merce screwed up, and they liked us.
这差点毁了我们的名声！ Almost ruined our reputation!
来自印度艾哈迈达巴德的萨拉巴伊先生 Mr. Sarabhai from Ahmadabad in India,
在观看了康宁汉舞团的表演后， after seeing a performance by the Cunningham Company,
问默斯，他的舞蹈在美国是不是很流行 asked Merce whether his dancing was popular in the United States.
默斯说，他的舞蹈主要在大学和学院演出 Merce explained that programs were given principally in universities and colleges.
萨拉巴伊先生说：“我不是这个意思。” Mr. Sarabhai said,"That isn't what I mean."
我是想问，人们在饭后会跳你的舞吗？” Do people do it after dinner?”
天啊。 Oh, God.
与同一个团队的20个人在一起相处六个月是很困难的 Six months with the same group of 20 people is hard.
当鲍勃离开的时候， Anyway, when Bob left, this was a time
正是默斯和舞者之间的沟通 when communication was particularly poor
特别糟糕的时候 between dancers and Merce.
我们有点害怕未来会发生什么事情， We were kind of scared of what was going on,
因为默斯非常沮丧 because Merce was very distressed
他感到有责任对整个事情负责， and had the responsibility of the whole thing,
但同时他也一直在继续完美的表演 and was dancing gorgeously the whole time.
哦，真漂亮， 真的。 Oh, it's beautiful. It really is.
哦！ 它是无限的，因为它与天空相交融 Oh! It's infinite because it goes in with the sky.
哦，太棒了。 Oh, it is fantastic.
这家伟大的舞团的优势之一 One of the strengths of this great company
是它有能力吸引 is its ability to draw to itself
顶级视觉艺术家和音乐家加入自己 as full-time collaborators top visual and musical artists,
比如凯奇、沃霍尔、劳森伯格和贾斯珀·约翰斯。 like Cage, Warhol, Rauschenberg and Jasper Johns.
约翰斯先生在对服装进行最后的润色 Mr. Johns cuts the finishing touches into the costumes,
安迪沃霍尔设计的银色枕头 and Andy Warhol's silver pillows
在舞台上漫游，像云一样寻找自己的家 wander the stage cloud-like, looking for a home.
你认为你的作品前卫吗？ Do you consider your work avant-garde?
嗯，我从不评价我自己。 Well, I never use the word about myself.
但你会说你的舞蹈是全新的 But you would then say that yours is new dance.
你会如何描述它？ How would you describe it?
嗯，不，我不描述它，我只是去做 Well, no, I don't describe it. I do it.
跟我一起做，向右，向左，向右，向左 Do it with me. Step right, left, right, left.
哒，哒，注意腿，还有背，向上，向下 Bah, bah. Leg,back, turn up, down.
一，四，七，八 One, four, seven, eight.
三，四，六 Three, four, six.
亲爱的，我所做的任何事情都可能是错误的。 Sweetie, anything I'mdoing is probably wrong.
不，这没什么 No, it's nothing.
还有一、二、三、一、二、三、 And one, two,three, one, two, three,
四、五、六、七、八、九， four, five, six,seven, eight, nine,
10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16,
17, 18, 19, 22.
五，六，七，八，九， Five, six, seven, eight, nine,
10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16,
17, 18, 19, 23.
六，七，八，九， Six, seven, eight, nine,
10, 11, 12, 1314, 15, 16, 17,
18、19、24。
五，六，七，八，九， Five, six, seven, eight, nine,
10, 11, 12, 13, 14,15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 25.
五，六，七，八，九， Five, six, seven, eight, nine,
10, 11, 12, 13, 14,
15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 26.
五，六，七，八，九， Five, six, seven, eight, nine,
10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16,
17、18、19、20，停下，感觉还行吗？ 17, 18, 19, 20, stop. All right?
有时我认为那些舞者， Sometimes I think the urge to communicate
有一种十分强烈的与你更直接交流的冲动 more directly with you is fairly strong in the dancers,
- 但他们把它控制住了。- 是的。 - but they hold it back.- Yes.
这让他们陷入了某种困境之中 Which puts them intosome kind of a conflict.
他们必须得自己处理这种情况， They have to deal with the situation,
他们必须自己想办法 and they have to figure so much out for themselves.
等一下，嗯 Excuse me. Um.
你刚才说的就是我在打赌的东西，哈哈 I think that's what I gamble on. Heh.
-你在赌什么？- 哦，对 -What you gamble on? -Yes, yes.
我赌事情总会朝着好的方向 That is, it's toward the good
而不是坏的方向发展，嘿嘿嘿。 rather than the bad, heh-heh-heh.
我知道事情并不总是这样。 I know that doesn't always work.
呃... Uh...
但我宁可相信我赌赢的次数会更多 But I rather think it works more times than it doesn't.
就是说，我认为需要把人放在 That is, by putting somebody in a situation
必须对某事做出决定的情况下， where they have to make a decision about something,
这就是意义所在， is what it amounts to, rather than
而不是依赖于一种，比如说 being dependent upon a kind of
其他人来告诉你，现在你这样做，然后你这样做， now you do this, then you do this,
然后这样做，然后再这样做。 and then you do this, and then you do this.
对不起，我得上楼了。 Excuse me, I must go upstairs.
我们了解了许多 Aware of the many activities
与康宁汉舞蹈基金会有关的事情， connected with The Cunningham Dance Foundation Incorporated,
吉姆·克洛斯蒂问默斯 Jim Klosty asked Merce
是否觉得自己像个族长。 whether he felt like a patriarch.
承包商出了两千美元。 Two thousand dollars from the contractor.
我们自己还有 5869 美元零90 美分， Our $5869 and 90 cents,
所以我们的收益总共是 giving us thus a net
23,355 美元零 10 美分 of $23,355 and 10 cents from the benefit.
默斯说，“不”， Merce said, "No",
我感觉自己像是一个被困的旁观者。” I feel like a bystander who's been trapped.”
- 我 … 从不相信这种说法 - I - never believed that idea
说舞蹈是所有艺术中最伟大的 that dancing was the greatest of the arts.
舞蹈里面有太多低级的东西 There are too many low things in it.
太多的舞步要兼顾， Too many feet to take care of,
还有大量的汗水和乏味的练习 a great deal of sweat and plain labor.
但当一切都融会贯通时，有趣的事情就来了 But when it clicks, there's the rub.
它会变得令人难忘， It becomes memorable,
并且可以让你再次被它诱惑。 and one can be seduced all over again.
默斯和他的舞团之间的年龄差距在 The age difference between Merce and his company
50 年代并没有像现在一样那么大， was not that great in the '50s, as it is now.
因此，我认为对于早期的团队来说，家庭的层面缺失了。 So that the family aspect of the early years is missing, I think.
他们不会分享他们的生活 And they don't share their lives in the same way.
他们不一起吃饭，或者一起玩。 They don't eat together, um, play together.
有的只是舞台上那个更完整的人， There was a human being there, a more total person on stage,
我们彼此之间各不同， and we were different from one another,
他看到了这些差异。 and he saw those differences.
而且我认为，今天，康宁汉对 And I think, today he's interested
需要调度一大群舞者的舞蹈很感兴趣 in orchestrating a large company of dancers.
在他的大多数新作品中， And in most of the new pieces,
舞者作为一个群体，作为一个整体在其中发挥作用 they function as a group, as a company.
到今天为止，默斯已经入行很久了， Merce has been working so long now,
以至于曾经和他一起跳舞的一些非常优秀的舞者， that some very fine dancers who used to dance with him,
例如，凯珞琳·布朗，维拉·法伯 Carolyn Brown, for instance, and Viola Farber,
还有最近的瓦尔达·塞特菲尔德都离开了舞团 and more recently, Valda Setterfield, have left.
现在，舞团里，呃， And at the present moment, the company
几乎是全新人 is, uh, almost entirely new,
然而它依然是伟大的。 and yet it's magnificent.
那是因为你必须允许每个人。 That's because you have to allow for everybody.
每个个体都发挥自己的可能性 Every single person has a possibility.
所以我做的不是去找到第二个凯珞琳，而是尝试某种方式 So what I do is not to imitate Carolyn, but to try some way
找到一个简单的方法，让每个人 to find something that simply allows each person
成为他们本来的样子， to be what they are,
如果我幸运的话，这就会发生 and if I'm lucky, it will happen.
我相信这会发生的 But I trust that.
- 我 - 只想说 - I - would just like to say
我非常感谢我舞团的舞者， that I'm very grateful for the dancers in my company,
还有感谢他们对我的包容…… and the way they have put up with me...
...以及我们一起完成的所有事情。 ...and all the things that we have done together.
我认为他们表现得很棒 I think they have responded marvelously.
1970年代初期，所有康宁汉团队的元老已经全部离开， 这既是一个旧时代的终结，也是一个新时代的开始。
康宁汉一直在继续工作，直到2009年去世，享年90岁
在他70 年的职业生涯中，康宁汉创作了180部舞蹈， 并在世界各地进行了超过700场演出
康宁汉至今仍是世界上最有远见与影响力的编舞家之一